2007-04-13 [Looni Commanda]: You still haven't swayed me in my beliefs.

I didn't actually personally talk with jim, because Usually it was my mother that talked to him. In fact, just a couple of minutes ago I was talking to her. Jesus was killed on a cross, And I don't know how to prove it. Even if there is the theory that he is imaginary, and I get comfort knowing he is there and I will go somewhere good, I like to stick with it. I find little things that catch my like a fish on a hook when I read scripture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but may I jsut ask a question?
Hebrew was the correct text that the bible was written in. Not greek, or Roman. but Hebrew. Do any of you study hebrew? I know I bring my mom into this alot, (because yes I do trust her. She brought me into this world, and my life goes on good so far). She studies a lot of hebrew, and I want to ask you a question. Do you?
In hebrew, Joshua, (or in hebrew it is pronounced Yeshua), means salvation. Joshua, is Later in hebrew pronounced Jesus. And Here is one thing that I like to bring up.
Children, like you said believe in the fairy tale of santa. Yes, Santa is not real. But, in a way he is.
The children know, there is someone that is going to leave a gift of love under a christmas tree, and when they open it, they will most likely love it. They get gifts on christmas, that their parents gave them. Yes, the parents tell them that 'santa' gave the gifts to them, but the kids don't know it was the parent. The only thing they don't know, is the true destination, and the identity it came from. But they do know that they are going to recieve something with love. Jesus, is yes as you put it, a comfort. And bringing up the moral thing, if he wasn't telling the truth, he was lying. So would it be a lie, if he said 'I am the son of god'? The new testiment shows us that he died on the cross to save us from our sins, so that we would be promised salvation. God sent us this man, so that we would be saved. That is what we were promised, and in every way, Yes i do believe he was the son that God sent.

Going to your birthday thing, yes I admit that is true. His birthday was not in December, you are totally correct that it was indeed in the summer area.

I know that my mom seeing jesus doesn't proove anything, but with the knowledge (which I can't seem to interpret fully still) that I have so far, I like to believe she was seeing something. Yes, I do also admit that it might have been a 'happy place' for her lol. I know that you guys probably think that I am pissed at you and moaning and complaining about you being atheist (if thats... what you call this? really sorry if I'm incorrect) but really I do enjoy speaking with you, because you look deeper into things that others. Asking why is good... and it's a sign that you are intelligent people. We need more intellegence around. (I wish I could say I was intellegent... but I aint lol I try)

2007-04-13 [VampireKisses]: Ok so here is two people who are arguing over the same thing. Here is two personal storys from both sides.

One) there is a god.

I was in the bath room, When I stubbed my foot and I screamed "GODDAMN IT". The lights started to flicker. Well I just ignored that and grabbed a glass to get a glass of water. When I tryed to get water it was all cloudy. I tried repeatedly to rinse out the cup and try again. It would not go clear. So I finally said, "sorry for taking your name in vain, Lord.". It all stopped lights stayed on and the water went clear.

Two) god doesnt exsist or he don't care.

I was in the kitchen. And all the sudden about 10 feet away from me there was what most people call a "Demon". He was just staring at me. Laughing at me and telling me I'm going with him, because his "Master" wanted my soul(or something like that I was a lil younger). I said " in the name of jesus christ, leave at once. He was still there laughing at me like I said something like pull down your pants and let me bang you. He came towards me and my father walked in and he disapperd (my father also claimed to be a black pope and that is the reason he disapperd).

So I can see both sides. Remember this is all opinions and believes. So dont try to be too mean to each other. And don't try to make the other one believe you because...as the picture says(even tho I don't agree with the picture) Don't shove religon down each others throat. Thats all I got to say...for now.

2007-04-15 [Nekko fox]: Okay, first off, Messir Tang decided to make the comment which started this little foray of ours. Nextly, LATIN was the first language that it was written in, not Hebrew. [The Voice of Indifferewnce] has a genesis link in his house. And, might I add, Jim's comments are even LESS worth your time because they are NOT second-hand knowledge, they are third-hand. And we keep bring up this little matter of "Believe half of what you see, and nothing of what you hear." We don't care about your opinion, and we're not trying to change it; we're trying to bring you out of your box. As for TOAV's comments...What on EARTH are you talking about? First off all, Demon's don't visit people unless you are dead. Were you dying? And what's this whole "Black Pope" thing your blathering on about? Next, what does the glass have anything to do with anything? I've taken the Christian lord's name in vain, repeatedly, and even added choice expletives. Even going so far as to say "Jesus Fucking Christ Tap Dancing Bananas" and variations of. Light problem? My light flicker occasionally. It's called faulty wiring. Hire an electrician. Cloudy water? Plumbers can fix that small problem. It could be lime sediment that was leaking intop the pipe but simply sealed itself off because of lime build up. And lastly, I'm not an Atheist, by any means of the word. I'm, if anything, gnostic pagan, believing in the true Gods, and questioning everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, before I make an opinion or rational decision. Now, I pass the buck over to my dear brother Rauel.

2007-04-15 [The Voice of Difference]: Well, I wouldn't believe anyone if they didn't have sufficient proof. How do you know he wasn't just lying by ommission, where he didn't lie, but he withheld key details? How do you know he was the son of god, but just one of the gods? Like there were many, and his father sent him to make you think that he was the only god? Happened all the time in Greek and Roman times.

2007-04-15 [Looni Commanda]: In the commandments, one of them is to believe in Yaway, (God) and believe he is the only god. When Yeshua, (Jesus) says that he is god, I like to think of it like this.
If you have a large glass of water, and pour it into three seperate cups, it is still the same water, but in three different bodys; representing the father, the son, and the holy spirit. There are not three gods, they are all equal as one.
I do not mock your faith at all, and I am deeply sorry for thinking you were an athiest, my apollogy. I'm not trying to be mean about anything.
But when you say The bible was written in latin, I'm sorry I believe you are wrong. The newer copies (which were still very old) were written in latin. But, the person who I mentioned before, my grandfather's friend was an archeologist who was the man that worked on the dead sea scrolls. You might be right about the New testiment being written in Latin, but the Old testiment was not. The old testiment was definately written in hebrew. Very very ancient hebrew. Abraham was the beginning of the Jews, and their writing was Hebrew. That was in the era of the old testiment. Moses is believed to have written the first five books of the old testiment. It makes no sense to say that the jewish nation spoke in read latin in their religious circles. I believe you are referring to copies that much of the new testament is translated from into english. But understand it is not just one manuscript that is used. there are many. They all agree and point although sometimes they do contain minor differences because of language.

2007-04-16 [Looni Commanda]: I respect your statement that if anything you are agnostic. this shows me that you have no intention of placing blind faith in anyone or anything. in this, you agree perfectly with the bible.

2007-04-16 [The Voice of Difference]: First, if you are going to state something from somewhere, realize we know what you're talking about. Abraham, did not start the Jews, his son did. His other son started the Islami religion. Old hebrew is known otherwise as Latin. Did you do your research to look that up?

You can believe whoever wrote what, just have good reason for it. So, back on that topic, does it make sense that some will have a different meaning, because they were translated from different languages. Don't you think that that would be a conveniant excuse to explain why some traditions are different. For example; Christmas. Think about it, do research outside of freinds.

I'm not agnostic either, I'm a simple polytheist. My religion doesn't have anything to do with my curiosity and intelligence.

2007-04-16 [The Voice of Difference]: Taken from someones house:

A new pastor was visiting in the homes of his parishioners. At one
House it seemed obvious that someone was at home, but no answer
Came to his repeated knocks at the door. Therefore, he took out a card And Wrote
"Revelation 3:20" on the back of it and stuck it in the door.
When the offering was processed the following Sunday, he found That his card had been returned. Added to it was this cryptic message.
"Genesis 3:10." Reaching for his Bible to check out the citation, he Broke up in gales of laughter.
Revelation 3:20 begins "Behold, I stand at the door and knock.”
Genesis 3:10 reads, "I heard your voice in the garden and I was afraid for I was naked."

2007-04-16 [Looni Commanda]: lol!!! ^_^ i like the little joke at the bottom. I'm sorry... who said they were- never mind I was looking at [Nekko fox]'s comment. Did he say he was Agnostic? O.O I'm sorry. my mistake again. But anyway, the Christmas thing is more over not even about Jesus anymore to some. Some people do christmas just for the food and gifts, and some do it as the actual religion of Jesus being born (even though we did agree that he was definately born in the summer.) But about the Hebrew thing, I don't think that's right, because Latin didn't come from the middle east. Old hebrew has barely changed, and Latin wasn't even around when Hebrew was. Hebrew was the original text, and when Latin was made, it helped when they had to write bibles in english. THEN they wrote in latin.

2007-04-17 [The Voice of Difference]: The christmas thing you're talking about is called, "Commercialism," and seems to be an excuse for a lot of weird traditions christians will celabrate.

I'll look that up and get back to you on the language bit. Until then; go here and read: www.thegodmurders.com

It has 173 reasons why god is a murderer. Go ahead, look up what it says in your 'Biblio'.

"Thank you, your honor. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm Gary DeVaney. It is impossible to be critical of evil while you praise it. It is impossible to defeat what you defend. As the prosecutor of the God of the Bible, I take legal issue with selected C&V charges that the defense will attempt to support. The jury is to judge the innocence or guilt of each count of murder as required by law. Judging all sides of each controversial or legal issue is important. The question is the highest form of thought. This is the time to think and to question. Most believers can not question what they believe. When a believer can not question, he / she remains mind-set. The no-win paradox for the believer is - if they do question what they believe - they prove not to truly believe it. That usually limits the believer's ability to judge the murderous God of the Bible as documented Chapters and Verses. Please, do not believe me or any other man. Judge the evidence, the selected Bible Chapters and Verses for yourself. You are the only thinker in your entire universe."

                      -Quoted from the above link

2007-04-17 [Looni Commanda]: god never really killed anyone. The people chose to die for him, in defence of him. roman soldiers held Jesus's trial at about three or two in the morning (kind of a more over illegal trial) because he had over thousands of followers that were willing to stick up for him if they had a regular trial. They were willing to die, God did not make them do anything. God is not a person playing us all like puppets, he made us because he wanted to take care of us, and to love us. The thing about Christianity, is that it is mostly based on Jesus's reserection. Without that, there wouldn't be any Christianity. He reserected, and people seemed to know it. Einestein, proved mathmatically that everything leads to one source. A strange correlation between the old and the new testiment, is how very similar the two are. The old testiment, basically repeats the whole process of what the new testiment says. For instance, Noah's ark. The people that told him he was crazy, and would not enter the boat because there was not going to be any kind of rain, died. Noah told everyone it was going to rain (even though it was not raining at all), and that there was going to be a flood, the people that didn't believe him didn't come onto the boat. Noah kept the door open, so anyone who believed him could enter. When the flood started though, he closed the door. The people that didn't come in, were killed by the high waters. In heaven, God keeps his gate open to anyone that wants to come in. All you have to do is love him. You don't have to be good, donate to the poor, or walk around preaching. All you have to do is love Jesus Christ. So he keeps the door open for anyone that wants to come in, and if you are in denial of him, get there, and say 'go ahead shut the door nothing will happen,' you will most likely go to the pit. God in fact, did not make hell for people. He made it for Angels that were evil, Satan. It was not his will that any man go into that pit.

2007-04-21 [The Voice of Difference]: That's the problem. Where does it say that? And again, we know what you are talking about when you mention a story, we don't need you to retell it to us from either your preacher's or your mother's piont of veiw. Remember the, "Form an original thought," bit we talked about earlier?

People focus on loving Jesus, rather than learn what he taught.

2007-04-22 [Looni Commanda]: I do know what Jesus taught, that he would be lifted up on a cross for sin, that he would rise again in three days, that we could recieve forgiveness from him for our short comings, and evil ways. That we must love each other as we ourselves desire to be loved. He taught that he saw satan fall like lighting. I'm not sure what it is you think he taught that I do not know. ? ? But I also know, that jesus was a jew who claimed to follow believe and honor the old testiment which he called the law and the prophets. If he claimed this, it means that he taught we, are to believe not just in him. but also, in the law and the prophets. The only people he told us not o believe were people who add to these things in such a way that they take away from what these people taught. It is impossible to believe that Jesus was a great teacher if you don't believe what he taught. This is why I say he was not just a man; he is the Messiah for the law and prophets, all described precisely who the messiah would be when he came. I do believe that the things that he taught are true. I do not contradict myself and state that he was a great man, a good person, a fantastic teacher, and yet deny half of the things he said to be the truth.

2007-04-23 [The Voice of Difference]: I like that, in your first line, it says, "forgiveness from him", meaning Jesus. Did you also know that in John 8:15 & 12:47 Jesus said: "I judge no man"?

In John 4:22 Jesus said: You people worship what you do not understand. We worship what we understand, because salvation is of the Jews. Are you Jewish?

It says in Isaiah 7:14 The "virgin" (almah) shall be with child and his name shall be Immanuel. In Isaiah's day, 'almah' simply meant, "young woman" - Not a virgin.
And, why is the Messiah's name Jesus Christ instead of "Immanuel"? Who calls Jesus "Immanuel" when referring to Him? Do you call Jesus Christ "Immanuel" when referring to Him? By what name do you call Him? Did not Isaiah state: "His name shall be Immanuel."?

You're right. You don't contradict yourself. You contradict what you're refering to.

2007-04-23 [Looni Commanda]: Yeshua meant, "I condemn no man" when He said I "judge" no man. He had not come as the roaring lion of Judah yet, he had come to offer forgiveness which means He came as the Lamb.
He shall return as the roaring Lion and save His People Israel
which consist of both the Jews and the Gentiles who have been
grafted into the Tree spoken of in the New Testament.

Salvation is "of" the Jews....this means that salvation came
through the Jewish nation...it does not matter whether of not
I am Jewish...what matters it that the Messiah had to be born of a Jew.

The word almah was translated by Jews BEFORE Yeshua was born as VIRGIN in Issiah 7:14 in the Greek Septuagint. The JEWS chose to use this word when they could have simply chosen to write the Greek word for "young unmarried woman." Did you ever stop to think that what matters is what the word meant
during the time period the orginal writer wrote it (which is
previous to the birth of Christ. Maybe they began to use a different meaning in Christ's day...in denial of Christ. 

The TITLE Jesus Christ means Yeshua Ha Maschiach it is NOT
a first and last name and in the Jewish Religion people are given many names (titles) to represent something about WHO they are. Jesus is Greek for Yeshua which means "Salvation"
Christ is the Greek Word for Maschiah in Hebrew which means
Messiah. The Old Testament shows that the one named Immanuel
is ALSO the salvation of God.

By the way, my teacher is a JEWISH Rabbi...I belong to a JEWISH congregation of believers in Yeshua (JESUS)

2007-04-24 [The Voice of Difference]: Then how can you reciave salvation from him?

He was already alive when he said that. It didn't matter where he was born from. As you say in your next paragraph, "what matters is what the word meant
during the time period the orginal writer wrote it"

He still wasn't named Immanuel. And in his day, it meant young woman. Right there shows that people translated it to be percieved wrong. The 'VIRGIN' birth couldn't have happened. First, it says in Matthew 1:16 Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary…
This introduction to Joseph and Mary starts off with Joseph being Mary's husband. Doesn’t husband mean that Mary was already married to Joseph? And in Matthew 1:18 Mary was betrothed (Catholic) espoused (KJV) to Joseph but before they lived together she was pregnant. And Mark 6:3 documents: Is He (Jesus) not the son of Mary, the brother of James, Joses, Judas and Simon? Luke 2:7 & John 2:12 also provide evidence that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Specifically, if Mary sexually consummated her marriage with Joseph to make it legal and had more children, how could Mary have remained a virgin? Galatians 4:4 Paul said: Jesus was made of a woman made under the law… KJV
Galatians 4:4 Paul said: Jesus was born of a woman born under the law… Catholic
Paul was the biggest NT writer about Jesus. Paul said nothing unusual about the birth of Jesus. Doesn’t “born under the law” mean that Mary had married Joseph, had sex with Joseph and bore Jesus legitimately under the law?
When he shows up, I still won't believe him. Have you ever heard, "If on the path, you meet the Enlightened one, kill him." Do you understand what that means?

I know what his title is. My NAME IS Joshua.

Good for your teacher, it's just another mans word that doesn't really matter.

So, now you're sounding to contradict yourself. Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, that's majorly what seperates the Jewish from Christians.

Believers tend to attach their egos to their God, President, company, team or love-object. When criticized, believers blindly defend those criteria as if they were defending their own egos. If someone other than God had done these things would you have taken side with him or her? Can you explain your attitude even to yourself?

2007-04-24 [Looni Commanda]: I’ll be completely honest with you…all of the killing that goes on in the Name of Jesus, Allah, and between races, nations, countries, tribes…these things horrify me. But I do not blame race or religion for murder, thievery, jealousy, or betrayal…I do not think it is the differences between
human beings that causes the problems among mankind so much as I do that it’s this one common factor that all human beings share…they are imperfect in their ways and capable of doing imperfect things. We all fall short of perfection but some fall further away from it than others do. People that want to control others, or that envy etc…will use their religion or nation as an excuse to act out all of the things that are within their heart. I do not deny that religion or culture can intensify what is already there, but underneath all that religion there is a person with a
free will. If religion were the true problem, everybody that murders in the name of a religion would be “not guilty by reason of religion” People know that it is wrong to murder, to steal, to cheat, to lie etc… But they can fall so far into these things that they are desensitized…have no empathy and therefore no will to restrain themselves. I believe in freedom, so long as that freedom is not used to harm others. In other words, I do believe that it is necessary to maintain law and order in
order to sustain life. If someone is an absolute danger to society for instance, that person must be held accountable and be prevented from doing further damage.

The end of your last posting confused me…I do not want to reply to it until I am sure I know
What it is your asking me. Could you be more specific? I don’t want to write a reply that does not apply to what you asked me to begin with. You asked if I’ve been shocked by what God has
been reported to have done with these selected Bible chapters and verses…the verses you sent
To me…in regard to the virginity of Mary…are murderous evil deeds? I am not sure if you forgot to send me some verses or if my computer is not showing them…or if I am missing something you are trying to tell me. I don’t like murderous evil deeds…but I am not sure how they apply to the virginity of Mary (or non-virginity). I do not think an evil group of scholars rewrote the scriptures so I’d believe in Jesus so if that is what you wondered about…what I don’t like is the men who slander the translators of the Bible. People have tried to tell me that the vowels were taken out of The Divine Name of God by some evil Jewish Scribes…I laughed so hard because
I know that in the Hebrew language there are NO VOWELS! There are now vowel markers…but
Hebrew is constructed purely of consonants! There have NEVER been any vowels in the Divine
Name YHWH. People make accusations that don’t turn out to be true…but if you have some that are true I want to be the first to see them because it is good to know the truth

As for the verses in reference to Mary…I don’t believe God did anything wrong to these verses.
I also do not believe that the translators of my Bible tampered with them. Why would a Hebrew
Scholar that does not believe in Jesus because Jesus is not even born yet tamper with a verse
And make it look like a virgin is going to give birth to a son and call that son Immanuel?! The people who translated that verse to read “virgin”…were Jewish Scholars that translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek BEFORE Christ was ever born. My offense is directed at whoever made
Such an erroneous claim and since I have heard all about this before you ever forwarded this…
I do not mean that I am offended with you. I have researched this and I know that the person
Who originally made such a statement is WRONG…I can prove it to you.

In regard to Isaiah 7:14
If you read the whole chapter in CONTEXT…you will see that the person giving birth HAS to be a virgin because if she is just a maiden or young woman…that gives birth to a child and calls him Immanuel…it is NOT A SIGN OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN NATURE! God is offering in this verse to give Israel a sign from heaven…a sign that will make it obvious to everybody that it is a miracle and not just an everyday normal event.  Babies were named Immanuel back then…young women often under the age of 14 gave birth to these babies…it happened ALL THE TIME…so how would this be a sign from God? Even if someone invented this book of Isaiah, the person would be intelligent enough to make his Almighty God at least look like one! The God would do something supernatural…or nobody would notice the sign! The word almah can mean virgin and it is clear to me that in context…this verse was meant to be understood that way. I am not suggesting that you believe it’s true…that is up to you…I am merely saying that whoever wrote it wanted you to understand the word almah to mean virgin. If it were translated the other
Way the paragraph would not make sense.

There are other places in Scripture that back up the view that Mary was a virgin until after Jesus was born…in the Old Testament. But I am already running late…I will reply to the rest of your posting soon…and I do like it that you show me these things. I do want to check them out…it is
In my best interest to do so and I am glad you take the time to do what you do. I wish there were
More people like you…the world needs somebody to keep them thinking and searching. You sound intelligent…I have a feeling if anybody can show me something that arouses my suspicions as to the integrity of the translators of the Bible and the writers of the New Testament,
It will be you. At least the things you tell me are not ridiculous! They are valid questions and worth scrutinizing and doing some research on if I haven’t seen them before. I think it’s important to Examine all things…you’re right to speak out if you think someone is dishonest…I cannot fault That. I want to know if there are grounds to think so and feel confident that if there are you will find them and pass them on to me.

2007-04-25 [The Voice of Difference]: Another good person to talk to about the inaccuracies of the bible is [Ronin Wolf'sheart]. He'll surely have some good insight to the discrepancies you may have. But he is on Elftown.

2007-04-25 [Looni Commanda]: I can't click on it you didn't type it in right??

2007-05-29 [Looni Commanda]: oh jeez im stupid he's in elftown lol I didn't see that

2007-06-07 [The Voice of Difference]: It's okay.